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Author Topic: Are "libertines" dangerous?  (Read 4192 times)

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dalebert

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2014, 10:42:24 AM »

Look, I get why you have personal issues with this based on your background. It's called a trigger. When someone has a trigger due to some traumatic experience from their past, they have to avoid certain situations. I get that. But think about this. Maybe yours is not the most objective viewpoint on this subject and maybe it never will be. I don't know if I can ever say something that will get you, specifically, to look at the subject objectively and rationally. Every time you bring up this subject, and you do a lot, it feels like an energy vortex that's going to suck up my time and energy pointlessly. Each time, I know I'll have to repeat everything we've already discussed (a couple of years now?). All progress seems to be lost each time and we have to start ALL OVER AGAIN as if you're still a total noob to this subject.

That perfect example of a straw man that you just posted is exactly what I'm talking about. I feel like I'm back to explaining the difference between consensual activity and aggressive violence. And you picked such an extreme case--I too would seriously question such a practice even if it were completely consensual (and not involving pedophilia!). Making this comparison is offensive in the same way that comparing homosexuality to bestiality as if the two are in any way comparable.

As far as this horror story that you're fabricating, as if it were some common occurrence that people ignore crimes because it might be consensual play, most BDSM people just aren't that stupid. And the ones who are deserve whatever happens. There have been cases of people walking in on private BDSM sessions and it typically does result in, at a minimum, a lot of embarrassment for all parties involved as everyone has to confirm that it is, in fact, completely consensual. I would expect a criminal who's trying to abduct or rape someone to maybe try to pass it off as a consensual activity. This is why it's such a straw man. People into such activities are well aware of how important it is to establish consent clearly beforehand and anyone who doesn't get that would be ostracized by the broader BDSM community and deserves to be perceived as a criminal.

Such an investigation by bystanders is totally appropriate and the depth of the investigation should be proportionate to the severity of the situation. If someone is bruised, naked, and in chains in a basement, that justifies a pretty extensive investigation. Hell, even if the alleged victim claims it's consensual, if they've been abducted involuntarily for a long enough time, they may be suffering Stockholm syndrome. If I knew someone who wanted to engage in a lifestyle that extreme (dom or sub), I'd first try to talk them out of it because it sounds really unhealthy. Failing that, I would say to make a video explaining exactly what they're consenting to that can somehow be dated--maybe uploaded as a private YouTube video, and tell several friends who can corroborate the story BEFORE they turn themselves over to the person. That is, if they care at all about their "master" not going to prison.

I don't want to imply that I don't care about convincing you what's wrong with what you're doing. I just don't think this conversation with you can ever be productive.

BonerJoe

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2014, 11:15:44 AM »

I think the dom/sub fetish scene is mainly used by people these days (especially 50 Shades fans) to replace a psychological need for traditional male/female relationship dynamics.
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alaric89

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2014, 11:37:27 AM »

 Dale I don't disagree with most of your last post, why are we arguing?
 I can't see what I fabricated. Those news stories are very real. Crowds ignoring blatant crimes happens all the time. Crowds usually hate the hero who tries to do something in fact.
 I started this thread because I wanted YOUR opinion on the video, Shaw was just a bonus. I did not want to bring up that top/bottom thing again at all, it only makes me feel like a weirdo. Most people think relationships need the dominant/submissive dynamic. I think when humanity evolves to the next leval perhaps based on upbringing alone, people will love having total equal cooperative relationships with friendly competition. Maybe we really are just smart monkeys who need to rule or be ruled, I don't know. If I ever meet a chick who wants to stand beside me in a cooperative I might make a video saying how swell it all is. As of now I only see that sort of thing in some science fiction movies.
 BJ as a bi sexual you probably switch back and forth without really noticing, like SL&A Antigone and Stephanie Murphy do. I can not even speculate really, but you folks are probably more evolved in a way.

dalebert

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2014, 01:03:56 PM »

Dale I don't disagree with most of your last post, why are we arguing?
 I can't see what I fabricated. Those news stories are very real.

Sure. And there are stories about people trying to marry their dogs, but that has no bearing on marriages between consensual adults. They are two different things. If someone brings up bestiality in a discussion about homosexuality, they're going to piss me off. Do you get that?

Crowds ignoring blatant crimes happens all the time. Crowds usually hate the hero who tries to do something in fact.

I don't doubt that happens for various reasons. I need an example. What you suggested is there's a danger people will ignore a crime because they think it's consensual BDSM play. Can you try to remember that this is a thread about whether libertines are DANGEROUS.

Maybe we really are just smart monkeys who need to rule or be ruled, I don't know. If I ever meet a chick who wants to stand beside me in a cooperative I might make a video saying how swell it all is. As of now I only see that sort of thing in some science fiction movies.

You keep equating two very different things and forgetting how key the notion of consent is. It's like a socialist who sees a voluntary relationship between an employer and an employee as exploitative and therefore morally unacceptable. Do you feel that way as well? Do those sorts of consensual relationships make you feel "icky"?

Do you not understand that we allocate responsibility sometimes in a mutually beneficial way? I let my vet "dominate" me by telling me what to do to my cat because I want him to take on some of my responsibility. Is that an abusive relationship? Should I take full responsibility for becoming a total cat expert so I can take care of my own cat even if she needs complicated medications or surgery? No thank you.

I don't like driving. For me, it's a luxury when I can just ride along and let someone else drive (unless they're just a really bad driver!). I even prefer the back seat when there are more than two people. Some people prefer to always drive. They feel insecure when they're not in control. Are they exploiting the riders?

A loving relationship is complex and can be loaded with all sorts of dom/sub dynamics. Even the most traditional relationships are rarely one-sided. How many traditional housewives get angry and say "get out of MY kitchen!" Maybe the husband is insecure if he's not always driving the car and the wife is insecure if she's not in control of the kitchen. They're both abdicating control in certain areas in exchange for not having to be responsible in certain areas. As long as these arrangements are consensual, they can be very beneficial to both partners.

Deja Vu. I feel like I've said this before in some manner, and I'll probably be doing it again. Ugh.

alaric89

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2014, 01:59:44 PM »

I am tired of trying to not argue with you Dale.
Funny you mentioned beastiality. I wouldn't use it as a comparable example because those people don't bother me, however the guy that posted the video in the OP just tried that shit on me. Unlike you, he is going to get both barrals of my troll fu. Why don't you help me out on youtube instead of beating a dead horse here. I don't like dominating people. Live with it, call me a switch I don't give a fuck. We are on the same side dude.
Pssst check out the comments on the video on the OP.

dalebert

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2014, 03:07:31 PM »

I'll read the comments but I haven't been able to leave comments on YouTube ever since Google "fixed" them. It's very frustrating. People are WRAWNG on the Iternets!

dalebert

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2014, 03:30:51 PM »

BTW, I just perused the first page of comments in that video and I have no desire to have a discussion with that guy. His beliefs seem too much like a religion. He makes a lot of declarations that have no basis in objective reality that he appears quite married to. That sort of conversation is not going anywhere.

The exception I'm inclined to make about such debates is if there is a reasonably substantial audience for the debate who isn't just as biased as him. Though he is beyond hope, much like Ken Hamm and the creationism debate, the hope is that onlookers will be swayed by the substance of my argument in comparison to the lack of substance in my opponent's. In other words, I have no desire to fluff his traffic and speak primarily to his adoring fans on his site.

alaric89

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2014, 03:31:38 AM »

I don't blaim you. I think he has some thoughtful subscribers worth reaching, and I am a skillful troll if I don't say so myself.

FYI as of late I can only comment on youtube via my Google chrome browser. I Use IE for most browsing and Chrome for youtube and facebook. Seems to be the least buggy solution for me.

dalebert

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2014, 11:00:35 AM »

I use Chrome and it isn't helping. Oh well.

sillyperson

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2014, 08:13:59 PM »

I don't blaim you.
... but do you blame him?

dalebert

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2014, 04:23:09 PM »

alaric89

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2014, 03:08:57 PM »

 Peter Schiff is now stumbling around on the gay thing. God dammit, where does the fear of gays come from? The only gay guy that ever tried to pick me up was pretty nice about it, hell I was flattered. Simple "thanks for the beer but I'm straight." End of story.
 Being a member of the drama club and the varsity heavyweight wrestler in high school I found myself being early on the defending gays thing, not that the gay bashers really wanted a piece of me. "I don't have a problem with them, why don't you shut up." was about all it took. Later on I found out some of the gay bashers were gay, and probably appreciated my POV.
 I don't know. I really wish the gay lobby could try a little humour, restraint, and maybe understanding that they are feared for some reason, with their activism. Normalize homosexuality by being normal. Passing anti discrimination laws or acting entitled sure as hell isn't the way to go though.
 I, at this time, don't have a problem with libertine types. I only vaguly remember being freaked out about people who like weird sex. I will say that folks who were cool about it by showing themselves to be good people helped me along though. The angry ones did not.
http://www.schiffradio.com/?gclid=CJ7GlYyKwroCFa57cAodpEgAxw

alaric89

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Re: Are "libertines" dangerous?
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2014, 03:33:56 PM »

God Created Gay People Too | Jesse Ventura Off The Grid - Ora TV
Maybe wrestlers in general find themselves defending people they don't really understand.
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