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Author Topic: Are "libertines" dangerous?  (Read 2126 times)
dalebert
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2014, 01:33:37 PM »

I would generally avoid exposing children to the Dom/Sub thing.

I think the vast majority of dom/sub types would agree with you. Most kids are traumatized just imagining their parents in sexual situations. I think the issue here is exposing kids to their parents doing anything sexual. These are things people do in private whether there's kink involved or not.

I probably wouldn't hang out with people who do that. I wouldn't say I have the right not to have to see it.

I hope you mean if they do it in front of you. Doing kinky things in front of people who don't care to see it sounds like a very specific and not very common fetish. You might be hanging out with kinky people and not even know it because, like most people, they do their sexy time in private.
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alaric89

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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2014, 04:39:48 PM »

Does Michael W Dean have that fetish?
Does everybody in a gay parade have that fetish?
Do those religious people who believe womaen infurior have that fetish?
Rare my ass. Derrick J is the only libertine type I know of who I have never heard mention his lifestyle unless asked about it. I think libertines by definition have to be loud about it. A quiet gay couple who do nothing but maybe hold hands in public, (or any couple who keep happy fun time to themselves for that matter) are not really libertines at all are they?

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John Shaw
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2014, 07:21:26 PM »

I hope you mean if they do it in front of you. Doing kinky things in front of people who don't care to see it sounds like a very specific and not very common fetish. You might be hanging out with kinky people and not even know it because, like most people, they do their sexy time in private.


Expose me to it. Yes. I have friends who do whatever in their private time. But if some character shows up to a house party with some other character on a leash they probably won't get invited back.

For instance:


This sort of thing is not acceptable in our home.
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dalebert
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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2014, 08:03:07 PM »

Okay, first fallacy is that you switched from people doing these things in front of other people or even their children to just talking about it in an appropriate place, e.g. on a show about liberty clearly directed at adults.

Does Michael W Dean have that fetish?

Like me, he's got a podcast and we talk about controversial things. We can talk just about stuph that most people already know all about and agree on if you want us to be boring.

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Does everybody in a gay parade have that fetish?

Exaggerate much? Everyone... or maybe a few people who chose to be on floats? Were you actually there or were you seeing just the floats that the mainstream media decided to show on TV for controversy (translation: ratings)?. What about the marching bands? Various activist groups? The school groups (I used to march with those)? The massive numbers in the audience? The last several times I attended Prides, I didn't even watch the parade. They bore me. What about all the others like me who weren't even in the audience for the parade? You saw it on a float on the news != "everyone". Good grief.

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Do those religious people who believe womaen infurior have that fetish?

I don't even... ask them. I don't fucking know. I haven't seen any connection.

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A quiet gay couple who do nothing but maybe hold hands in public, (or any couple who keep happy fun time to themselves for that matter) are not really libertines at all are they?

You'd like that, wouldn't you? To make people feel ashamed of being libertines so you can pass your stifling baggage on to future generations.. You think it's not healthy. I disagree. I want a more libertine culture. I'm not at all interested in doing sexy time in public but I am going to speak my mind.

You've got nothing to back up your stifled notion of sexuality but "It's always been this way and it's supposed to be this way." May the best ideas win in the marketplace of ideas.
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dalebert
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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2014, 08:05:28 PM »

If your idea of "dangerous" is "people doing things I don't think they should be doing because tradition", then yes, we're dangerous.
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alaric89

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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2014, 03:05:59 AM »

At least we agree that a gay person isn't nessesarily a libertine right? That was the main place I disagreed with the video. Michael W Dean yelled at his wife to prove himself the badass when I called in to the Freedom Feens, remember? That forced me and Neema to submit by proxy. It was very uncomfortable, at least for me.
Why do you not see the similarity between people who have a dom/sub voluntarily relationship for religious reasons and every other relationship with the same dynamic?
I would say I am more the libertine of us two if you are going to simply define it as unusual sexually. I would like to have a sexual partner who is completely equal in responsabily and accountability to me and I am not exactly beating women off with a stick, where men who use women like kleanex often are.
Look at the recent turn Quantum Vibe took. After years of establishing a sexually even society, the writer had the heroes execute a man for "wife beating" a crime that shouldn't exist in that world. That writer seems to know his stuff but I find this contradiction odd.
Maybe we should define libertine in the first place, but please don't get all pissed off when I just try and hold everyone to the same standard.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 08:07:51 AM by alaric89 » Logged

dalebert
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 08:56:29 AM »

At least we agree that a gay person isn't nessesarily a libertine right?

I don't think they are but you just implied that everyone at a gay pride event is not just a libertine--they're all the specific kind who want to exhibit dom/sub behavior in public.

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Michael W Dean yelled at his wife to prove himself the badass when I called in to the Freedom Feens, remember?

I don't remember that. Was I there? I don't listen to many podcasts. I don't reall know the details of Michael's situation beyond what he and I have specifically discussed either here or on podcasts that we were both on (either his or mine).

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Why do you not see the similarity between people who have a dom/sub voluntarily relationship for religious reasons and every other relationship with the same dynamic?

I've explained these things before at length but, like a typical troll, your memory seems to span minutes before you're on a rampage and asking the same questions again. THAT is what pisses me off so much. You know what I think your problem is? You're projecting. Sexuality is not black and white. It might be that for you. Maybe you are succumbing to societal pressures to see anything but the missionary position as taboo, and of course the only alternatives to that you're noticing are people who are way over on the opposite side of the spectrum and completely out-of-the-closet about it (like adult-oriented podcast hosts). So you project Michael Deen and his wife (I guess? I don't know much about his lifestyle.) onto anyone who's sex life is not as boring as yours. I don't think libertine is defined by sex but that seems to be the part you obsess over.

I feel I'll regret this but I'll attempt to RE-answer you. They don't even seem similar to me. For one, in the huge, vast majority of BDSM relationships, the context is rather limited and just looked at as role-playing; a game. It's often just in the bedroom. If it goes outside the bedroom, it's still role-playing. I think the most important part is that one is done out of a sense of duty to tradition and pressure from a judgmental society (conservatives) vs. one that often requires people to act on their desires DESPITE pressure from society (judgmental folks like you) because it's taboo and non-traditional.

A lot of people, mostly conservatives but libertarians included, try to draw a clear line between us and other animals, but we are animals. Dominance and submission are behaviors that are influenced by our biology. Men do tend to be more sexually dominant and are more likely to attempt to initiate sex, in a relationship or out. I believe that a man sometimes feels sexy when he's exhibiting "manly" traits like being more physically powerful. I beleive that a women sometimes feels sexy exhibiting more "feminine" traits like being more desirable and actively pursued by a man. That's IN GENERAL.

Conservatives try to make sense of everything through the context of tradition and religion. They assume everyone's the same and try to make it so--whatever it takes to shore up a shaky faith-based belief. Libertines try to find a healthy balance of satisfying our animalistic desires in a civilized society by recognizing that everyone is different and incorporating open communication and consent. It's the libertarian path to a more civilized society.

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I would like to have a sexual partner who is completely equal in responsabily and accountability to me and I am not exactly beating women off with a stick, where men who use women like kleanex often are.

Shocker. Sounds like you're buying into feminist bullshit. I don't see the big deal though. Aren't you in a happy marriage? By the way, yet another false dichotomy alert--you can have equal responsibility and accountability in a libertine relationship. You get EXACTLY what both partners want in exactly the context they want it.
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alaric89

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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2014, 09:44:20 AM »

I am working on my second divorce. Who the hell is projecting? You are the one telling me what I do. Why do you get so worked up about it?
 We are not going to get anywhere by generalizing and demonizing anyone. You seem to think religious couples never have good sex lives. Why is that?
 If it makes you feel any better a Amish couple who pushed their sexual beliefs on everyone (even if she taught the kids how to make butter in one of those dildo ina bucket thingies) wouldn't be invited back to my lunch buffets more then once either, so I wouldn't just be being a dick to the BDSM couple with the girl wearing a saddle and a horse tail buttplug (even if she was giving children pony rides) when I didn't want them there.
 If there is a feminist who wants woman truly equal and accountable at work or during a divorce I haven't heard the US version of it. Oddly enough Norwegian feminists do fight for mens rights, but they are usually leftists.
 I don't remember discussing libertines with you before. Until this thread I didn't know you considered yourself one. I kind of thought after seeing my old Santorum thread you understood I wasn't prude. I just don't like to dominate or be dominated, how and where I stick this into that or lick there after she has been marinating in a sauna has nothing to do with dominance.
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dalebert
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2014, 11:00:26 AM »

This is actually based in reality. Cracked covered it. The olympians are horn-dogs.

http://www.theonion.com/video/olympic-village-tour-see-where-the-athletes-live-t,35266/
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dalebert
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2014, 11:24:08 AM »

Why do you get so worked up about it?

Because you are judgmental about people into BDSM based on misconceptions, then I attempt to explain and it always seems to fall on deaf ears. You don't have an excuse to be ignorant anymore.

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We are not going to get anywhere by generalizing and demonizing anyone.

What I just said. The hypocrisy in that statement boggles my mind.

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You seem to think religious couples never have good sex lives. Why is that?

Only religions that attach a bunch of guilt to completely natural sexual desire. To the extent that a particular religion doesn't do that, I think there's potential for good sex lives. Most of the mainstream ones do that though.

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If it makes you feel any better a Amish couple who pushed their sexual beliefs on everyone (even if she taught the kids how to make butter in one of those dildo ina bucket thingies) wouldn't be invited back to my lunch buffets more then once either, so I wouldn't just be being a dick to the BDSM couple with the girl wearing a saddle and a horse tail buttplug (even if she was giving children pony rides) when I didn't want them there.

This is such a straw man and a ridiculous comparison. Religious people try to control the behavior of others; not libertines. Have you or anyone you know had guests show up like that to a lunch buffet? The only place I've seen something like that is somewhere it was appropriate, e.g. a specific section for it at Pride in San Fran or a kinky leather bar. And a naked horse-woman giving kids pony rides? Tell me when and where you saw that because those folks ARE fucked up and I guarantee the broader BDSM community wouldn't be tolerant of that shit.

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I don't remember discussing libertines with you before. Until this thread I didn't know you considered yourself one.

Maybe we haven't used that word but I feel we've discussed it at length. I feel that we all have different desires and that it's not only acceptable but healthy to act on our desires as long as everything is consensual and no one is harmed. That's what I mean by libertine. The libertarian in me says consent is a must but my personal attitude is I won't engage in harm, even if it's consensual. Even if someone expressly wants me to engage in anything I think is harmful to either of us physically or emotionally, I wouldn't do it. But I would make those judgments based on reason and evidence and do my best not to be biased by some bullshit guilt simply because it's taboo or not traditional. I feel like the judgmental guy in the video is guilty of exactly those sorts of biases in his judgment of libertines.

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I just don't like to dominate or be dominated, how and where I stick this into that or lick there after she has been marinating in a sauna has nothing to do with dominance.

That's fine. Don't do it. But you have a judgmental attitude about a whole spectrum behaviors of other people based on what appear to be some of the most extreme cases.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 11:26:57 AM by dalebert » Logged

dalebert
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2014, 11:54:59 AM »

Does Sex Affect Athletic Performance?
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alaric89

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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2014, 11:57:50 AM »

I haven't judged lifestylers of any sort even once on this thread, in fact I stated I don't judge them at all. I say be open and honest about it and try not to surprise people because it can be misunderstood. You are the one judging people Dale. Personally I know many religious couples who couldn't be happier with sex lives that compete with porn stars. They just don't have to cover themselves with latex to do it.

Who wouldn't want a ride?

You bet your ass there is a husband getting a hell of a handy.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 12:12:03 PM by alaric89 » Logged

dalebert
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2014, 12:47:00 PM »

I haven't judged lifestylers of any sort even once on this thread, in fact I stated I don't judge them at all.

Can you even hear yourself thinking?

First, the title of the thread:
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Are libertines DANGEROUS?

I kind of have my little crusade against people who need to dominate their lover.

Sidenote: The word "need" seems loaded in this context. A preference != a need necessarily. And sometimes someone desires (or needs) to be dominated and the "top", as you call them, can just be trying to accommodate someone else's needs.

someone imprisoning another, even concentually, and I have a problem.

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...my hatered for pussy assed "tops"...

Now I need to find out what your definition of "judgmental" is. Thinking someone's lifestyle might actually be dangerous? Having a problem with completely consensual behavior? Calling someone a pussy for their preferences? Having a personal crusade against them? Help me understand what YOU mean by "judgmental".
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alaric89

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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2014, 01:35:14 PM »

 When you grow up constantly trying to survive because the head of the household needs to dominate the rest of the family you have a tendancy to get itchy hands around want-to-be alphas. A little hang up I have. I am not judging, but anyone for any reason will be called out if they try and dominate anyone around me. Try and dominate me, they might get hurt. I almost always give a warning, because I know I have a problem. I have never continued beating someone after they submit thank goodness.
 I suck at team sports, because I have hurt people on my own team if they got lippy, and bring the whole team down. A good team needs an alpha.
 Some people are holding back monsters and trying to be a good person. I fucking hate it. Many will have these problems til peaceful parenting becomes the norm. I am sure I would have jail time had I ever lived in my home state as a adult. In Norway my horrible temper is nothing but embarrassing because people just find it clownish, and I am never aggressive first.
 I hope in a free society someday all this sort of thing will be a non issue. There will never be a reason to question if domination is some sort of force by intimidation or a lifestyle game of loving concentual submission. To be honest though, since I see a lot less of the dom/sub dynamic in Scandinavia where spanking has been illegal since '79 (I have seen women openly wearing dog collars too, so who knows) I think equality between lovers will be a by product of creating a better human through peaceful parenting. Since I have no frame of reference for BDSM and gays I don't really know what will happen. I do think watching someone openly "punish" another person or treat them like a farm animal, even if the slave/beast of burden moans with pleasure, will look repugnant to this more peaceful thoughtful and empathetic person, as would a gay top unconcerned with respecting their lover as a equal.
 If It seemed I was agreeing with the video that was not my intention. I put a disclaimer on the first comment. I did want to discuss the video and let it be known some stupid assed shit was being spread by some "libertarians".
 One more thing Dale. If the lifestyler "tops" don't want guys like me to lump you in with religious zealot and traditional conservative chauvinists (with willing submissive partners who would defend their lover to the death, hate to break it to you but quotes from a sub and a mentally broken submissive wife sound earily similer) you should have a little humour about it, and not use a paragraph of insults to explain it. "Look, my lover needs and craves my dominance. he/she would be depressed and unhappy without strong loving guidance and the security it makes her/him feel. It is not easy all the time but we are a perfect match and I am terrified anything bad would ever happen to them." Not slap them on the ass and say "Bitch get me a sandwitch!"
 Saw enough of that crap as a kid thank you very much.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 03:57:28 PM by alaric89 » Logged

alaric89

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« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2014, 05:58:39 AM »

 Now that we agreed that libertines are a-ok- although I still find people who need to dominate their lover repugnant, and always will no matter how special they think their paticular case is, Lets discuss why we can't just ignore cases of people silently in gags on leashes. If Dale is right and this stuff is natural and swell, people would simply not notice when someone IS being mistreated.
Cases in point:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/04/castro-kidnapper-suicide-jail/2768207/
And this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case
 Just looking at weirdness and noting how cute it all is doesn't help people being victimized. Someone dramatizing a terrorist attack better damn well both give warnings to the surrounding people and respect the reaction they might get if they aggressively push back when questioned, or except defensive moves from people who don't know and understand what is going on. A libertine who respects other peoples POV would have a easier time.
 If libertines wish to live in a free society they wouldn't want total exceptance of aggressive behaviour without question either, if only to stop their own rights from being violated. Passivety of the bystander is some seriously evil shit. Lets not normalize it.
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